The European Court of Human Rights decided this morning that there are gaps in Ireland’s abortion laws. Undoubtedly a fractious, spiteful and Pharisaical debate will now overtake the nation as a small minority try to force their ideology on a large majority while the spokespeople of the large majority over-react and driven by insecurity undermine their position. We might have another referendum on abortion law. We might actually, in what is an insane worst case scenario, have a kind of abortion law brought in. (For those of you unfamiliar with the strangely ignoble way Ireland remains the only Western nation (along with Malta) without abortion, my elder Patrick has the low-down.)
Issues as large and serious as this demand serious thought and prayer. It is not particularly appropriate to hash it out in blogs because there is so little space to be sensitive in the naked word. But I think wife-unit established a solid premise when off the top of her head while waiting for her computer to load up said:
The question that is asked is ‘When does life begin?’ but perhaps the true question is ‘At what point can life be terminated?’
Your Correspondent, Can only advocate things because he was born
I’m confused as to who is the minority and who is the majority.
The very large majority of Irish people, as the European courts acknowledged in their ruling, are against abortion.
I’m am surprised. Though happily! I honestly thought that to quite a large number of people, the right to abortion was seen as “entering the 21st century” – whatever that means.
You spend too much time on bulletin boards with internet atheists. 🙂
I agree with Kevin. The vast majority of non-internet atheists in Ireland are against abortion.
I phrased that last sentance badly and I don’t know how to fix it.
Yeah, after a while you start to think that just about everybody is a fundie atheist out to disagree.
Why don’t you write what you mean to write Orual and I’ll delete the first two and change the timestamp to the original time? Then I’ll delete this comment and everything will be hunky-dory!
prosecution and criminalisation of women who terminate pregnancies is to Ireland what prosecution and criminalisation of gays is to Uganda. both governments have the support of the populous and both think they are the only one in step with the moral drum beat and that others should learn from them. just saying.
No it’s not.
in a (admittedly limited) sense, it is. just pointing out that the polling numbers are irrelevant to the ethical righteousness.
the bigger point is the fact that EU can essentially tell Ireland what to do, over ridding the national government. but then the irish knew that when they voted yes to Lisbon to make sure they didn’t cripple the celtic tiger. ironic
“The very large majority of Irish people, as the European courts acknowledged in their ruling, are against abortion.”
I don’t think this is correct.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/major-opinion-shift-over-womens-right-to-choose-155619.html
I was about to say something along the lines of what enda said then he said it.
Just to clarify, this has nothing to do with the EU or the lisbon treaty. The ECHR is a separate entity which can also tell Ireland what to do. The European Court of Human Rights ruling in Senator Norris’s case resulted in the decriminalisation of homosexuality and will probably do the same on abortion (eventually). Opinion polls and referendums are largely irrelevant, membership of the ECHR is the more important question.
Good clarification counsel.
Mark – are you sure the ECtHR can “tell us what to do”? My interpretation, based on a law module I took five years ago, was that it is we were not bound by the ECHR and that although the Oireachtas passed an Act smiling and nodding in its general direction, that we’re not obliged by nothin’ if we don’t like it. Given that the constitution is reasonably clear on the rights of the unborn (as opposed to sodomy, which is not mentioned) if the ECtHR kicked up a fuss on abortion wouldn’t the default be to tell them to feck off?
JG, the European Court of Human Rights is an institution of the *Council of Europe* (which includes non-EU states such as Turkey and Russia), a totally seperate organization from the European Union.
EU law is directly effective in Ireland. The judgments of the EHCR – which, as others point out, is separate from the EU – are not. They create a political, diplomatic and (in a sense) legal obligation on the Irish authorities to bring Irish law into line with our treaty obligations, as set out in the judgment, but they don’t themselves operate to change or override Irish law.
The Oireachtas could ignore this. It would be embarrassing, but they could do it. And, since that has been their consistent strategy for the last twenty years or so, I suspect they will at least consider adopting it on this occasion.
It will be much more embarrassing, though, since it will involve ignoring not only the implications of our own Constitition and the plain statements of our own Supreme Court, but the rulings of the EHCR. There’s a political price to be paid for that, at a time when Ireland needs whatever shred of political crediblity it can muster internationally. Hoping To God That The Issue Will Go Away is a strategy that has served surprisingly well until now, but it may finally have exhausted its usefulness.
Thanks Peregrinus for saying what I couldn’t say. Merry Christmas Zoomtard et al…